Loan Officer Training 07/16/2024 - How to Structure a BRRRR Transaction

Welcome to Loan Officer Training! In this episode, we break down the essentials of structuring a BRRRR transaction—a powerful strategy in real estate investing that stands for Buy, Rehab, Rent, Refinance, and Repeat.

Join us as we unravel the intricacies of each step in the BRRRR method. From identifying suitable properties for investment to financing the initial purchase and navigating the renovation process, we'll guide you through the critical phases that lead to success.

Don't miss out on learning how to structure a BRRRR transaction effectively and unlock the potential of this proven investment approach. Tune in and empower yourself with the tools to thrive in the dynamic world of real estate finance.

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The Mortgage Calculator is a licensed Mortgage Lender (NMLS #2377459) that specializes in using technology to enable borrowers to access Conventional, FHA, VA, and USDA Programs, as well as over 5,000 Non-QM mortgage loan programs using alternative income documentation! 

Using The Mortgage Calculator proprietary technology, borrowers can instantly price and quote thousands of mortgage loan programs in just a few clicks. The Mortgage Calculator technology also enables borrowers to instantly complete a full loan application and upload documents to our AI powered software to get qualified in just minutes!

Our team of over 350 licensed Mortgage Loan Originators can assist our customers with Conventional, FHA, VA and USDA mortgages as well as access thousands of mortgage programs using Alternative Income Documentation such as Bank Statement Mortgages, P&L Mortgages, Asset Based Mortgage Programs, No Ratio CDFI Loan Programs, DSCR Investor Mortgages, Commercial Mortgages, Fix and Flip Mortgages and thousands more!

Our Mortgage Loan Originators are trained to be loan co

Catch all the episodes of the Loan Officer Training Podcast at https://themortgagecalculator.com/Page/Loan-Officer-Training-Series-Podcast

Catch all the episodes of the Loan Officer Training Podcast at https://themortgagecalculator.com/Page/Loan-Officer-Training-Series-Podcast

Loan Officers for Unlimited Free Non-QM Leads & Trainings Join The Mortgage Calculator at https://themortgagecalculator.com/join

The Mortgage Calculator is a licensed Mortgage Lender (NMLS #2377459) that specializes in using technology to enable borrowers to access Conventional, FHA, VA, and USDA Programs, as well as thousands of Non-QM mortgage loan program variations using alternative income documentation!

Using The Mortgage Calculator proprietary technology, borrowers can instantly price and quote thousands of mortgage loan programs in just a few clicks. The Mortgage Calculator technology also enables borrowers to instantly complete a full loan application and upload documents to our AI powered software to get qualified in just minutes!

Our team of licensed Mortgage Loan Originators can assist our customers with Conventional, FHA, VA and USDA mortgages as well as acc...

Transcript

Restream recording Jul 16, 2024 • 11:06:18 PM: 0:13

So, welcome everyone. My name is Kyle Hiersche I'm the COO of the Mortgage Calculator, joined here by our sales manager, Jose Gonzalez, and we are a lender that specializes in non QM loans. And what we do every Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday evening at 7 p. m. Eastern is this Loan Officer Training Series, where we do an in depth Training on a different loan topic tonight is a great one, which is how to structure a burr transaction, which is something that me and, Nick are big fans of, and that, of course, a lot of our loan officers and Jose are fans of completing for clients. Right? So, definitely something cool. Definitely a hot topic. So for the loan officers out there, especially those ones dealing with, investors, or people who want to be investors, just keep in mind, this is definitely a hot topic. It's a hot, you know, keyword it's in all the podcasts. So you need to be familiar with this type of transaction, these type of terms, and be able to help your clients with them and talk to them about it. And even, you know, you know, let people know what it means that don't, right? So, without further ado, let me go ahead and turn it over to Jose to get into the presentation. Good evening, everyone, or good afternoon, for those, those of our attendees that are on the West Coast. Tonight, definitely a hot topic, right? Tonight's presentation is basically geared not just to our loan officers out there, Right. Real important to know how to handle these transactions, but to our investors that are out there so they can know how to structure it. And also so they can know who to reach out to, to help them with their structure in the most efficient manner. If you're a loan officer. Like Kyle was mentioning, you definitely, definitely need to know how to navigate these waters to help the investors. And, definitely when we're talking about sustainable, MLO careers, keep in mind that, most be are, are, are, are transactions, are two loans in one. If there, if the investor is planning on holding onto the property as an income producing rental, which most of them do nowadays, because the rents are just so profitable. So let me go ahead and get right into it because it's all explained here in the presentation. Now, as always, I like to give a little context. As to why I feel that this topic is important. So we all know right now, the investors are driving the market, right? There's a lot of investors out there buying properties to rehab them and sell them or rehab them and keep them as a, an investment properties. We also know that non QM originations have increased. as a response to higher interest rates and the need to find alternative options for borrowers to qualify and alternative ways for borrowers to get a home. Now the, the, the fixed flip loans are a great option for borrowers to qualify. To obtain short term financing, because these are bridge loans with no prepayment penalties, allowing them to purchase and rehab the property with the same loan and not use their credit cards for the rehab. That's super important, folks, because once you start jacking up the balances on those credit cards, The credit scores are going to drop and then you may have an issue on that next loan. You're looking to get Whether it's another burr loan or whether it's the end loan to refinance out of the burr. We all know that low property inventory for sale has made rehabbing even more profitable. That's why we get all of these deals from these fix and flippers. Rent, rents are rising faster than interest rates also making the fixed flip loans converted to DSCR loans. Extremely popular. And as I mentioned, a Burr investor will need two transactions of planning and a holding the property as a rental property. They're going to use the initial fixed flip loan to purchase and rehab the property, and then they're going to refinance out of that fixed flip loan, usually with a DSCR loan, because the DSCR loan has limited. Or no seasoning on title required. And to remind those of us out there, what I mean by seasoning on title, and I'm not talking about salt and pepper. I'm talking about how long the, owner has been on title to the property, because that's, what's going to determine usually if we can use the new market value of the property. Right. Which is going to be worth a lot more after repairs. Than it was when it was purchased because the other option if there, if seasoning is an issue is to use the purchase price plus renovations. And usually the market value will be higher than the purchase price plus renovations if it's a good flip. So real important to note there. That's why it's, this segment of the market is one of the good set niches to target so that you will have a good multiplier there on your transactions of at least two. And then a happy flipper will be, we'll come back from war, right? So what exactly does burr stand for, right? It stands for buy rehab, rent. Right. Refinance to recuperate your investment and additional money, additional monies, right. The profit so that then you can repeat the transaction by buying another property to again, rehab it, rent it, refinance and so on and so on. Now it's real important for the investor as well as the loan consultant of the investor to remember that we need to plan for the exit strategy. Is it going to be a true flip Is it going to be a hold where you're going to sell the property once the renovations are completed or is it going to be a hold where you're going to hold it as a rental property? If it's going to be a hold, remember, a rental market study is essential. That's where you should be reaching out to your industry partners, like your realtors, maybe the realtor that sold you the property, can also provide you, market rent, So that, you can study the feasibility of refinancing out of the burr loan into a DSCR loan. You want to make sure is your DSC are going to be greater than one, less than one, a lot greater than one, like 1. where you're going to get a better pricing, now all. Income types are possible, but you, you see me, honing in on the DSCR loans because they're usually the only option that has zero months seasoning option when you've completed renovations to the property, meaning you don't have to wait six months. You don't have to wait 12 months to get the market value. You can get it now. As long as you can show the renovation that was done. We have options, even light renovation. We have options with zero seasoning required. Now, of course you can refinance into a full dog bank statement, P and L or 10 99 option, but again, the DSCR. The preferred one of experienced investors because it uses the property's rental income to qualify the borrower and not the borrower's personal income. And like I mentioned, it's, one of the only options out there with zero months seasoning required on title, meaning you can use market value instead of purchase price plus renovations. If you've completed at least some light. Renovation to the property. So again, important takeaway from this slide plan for the exit strategy. Now, what is a fixed flip loan? I mentioned briefly touched on it. It is a short term bridge loan designed to help investors purchase and renovate a property, usually to sell it at a profit, but also to facilitate the repairs. If the investor decides to keep it and refinance that of the flip loan into a long term loan at the end, the fixed flip loan is not a renovation loan like a two or three K or Fannie Mae home style, which are not bridge loans. The fixed flip loan, the true fixed flip loan is only for investment properties. Pre payment penalty is never applicable. That's another reason why the fixed flip loans are the way to go. When the rehabber wants to buy the property, renovate it with the funds from the flip loan as well, which is an like frost, you know, that's like the frosting on the cake. Right. You're already getting alone with as little as 10 percent down to buy the property. and loan amounts from 50, 000 to 5 million. But the key there is never a prepayment penalty and never an early payoff default. Now, what is an early payoff default? That is when the borrower pays the loan off before the early payoff period, uh, is expired. And that's, that can be a big issue for mortgage loan originators out there because, you know, If you finance what will be a flip with a regular non flip loan and the borrower, borrower uses the money to do the repairs and then turns around and sells the property three months later, guess what? You're gonna, that's an early payoff default and the, any, earnings from that loan are going to have to be paid. Returned that's the early payoff default clawback So definitely when structuring loans for a flipper make sure that you uh structure it With a fixed flip loan, which does not have a prepayment penalty And it's never subject to any early payoff default restrictions. And also, it's the one that's going to let the flipper get in without any consideration of their income, only, only gauging the loan, qualifying the borrower based on the profit of the flip, the borrower's track record on doing flips. And in most cases, but not all cases, the borrower's credit score. There are a few options out there that do not consider any credit score, only borrower experience and the profit in the flip. So in order to be able to properly consult the investor, and also in order for the investor to really know what they're doing, there are investor terms that we all need to familiarize ourselves with. And I'm going to run them through, here. We're talking about seasoning on title. I already mentioned that's how long the owner has been on title. Now, the best options for our DSER loan products out there are with six months. But three and zero months are possible. As I mentioned, if we show renovation, the property and other term is recourse loan, a recourse loan is a loan where the borrower personally guarantees the loan. This doesn't mean that it's a loan that does or doesn't appear on the borrower's personal credit. It just means that the borrower guarantees the loan personally, and they're responsible for any defaults on the loan. personally. Non recourse loan, now conversely, means that the borrower does not personally guarantee the loan. Now I will state that all of these fixed flip loans are recourse loans, but do not appear on the borrower's personal credit report. So it's half and half of what investors normally want. ARV, real important phrase there, is the after repaired value. In other words, that is the value of the property, the market value of the property, after all renovations have been completed. The as is value is the value of the property in its unrepaired state before renovations are completed. The renovation budget is the total cost. To renovate the property. Now the renovation budget is going to be broken down into soft costs, which are the expenses associated with the planning and development of the project, including architectural expenses, engineering tests, and permits. And you have hard costs, which are the actual construction costs of physical construction costs, like. Materials. Labor and contractor overhead. So what are some fixed flip costs? Frequently asked questions, right? These are the ones they're going to ask you. These are the ones you definitely need to know the answer to. And I briefly touched on this first one. Can I finance 100 percent of the rehab? And the answer is yes, absolutely. We can usually finance 100 percent of the rehab and up to 90 percent of the total. Loan to cost of the project. Now that 90 percent is for super experienced investors only probably done at least 10 flips in the last three years or more. And if credit is an issue, they're also going to have to have, you know, be in that top credit tier. And total loan to cost would mean the purchase price. Of the asset. So let's say the a, the, they purchased it for a hundred thousand dollars. Regardless of the asis value, sometimes the ASIS value is higher than what they paid for it. The, the cost would be the cost of the asset and the cost of the renovations. Nothing based on the after repaired value or anything like that. This is loan to cost and 90% is the max. That would mean that at closing. The borrower would need to give 10 percent down, right? 10 percent down payment of the asset, whatever they're paying for it. So they're paying a hundred grand at closing. They got to, they got to give 10 percent down and the initial distribution would be 90, 000 to be able to close. And then the rest of the loan would be the rehab portion of the loan, which is a hundred percent. Of the rehab, whatever it is, and that's paid out in draws, right? As work is completed, the contractor puts in a requisition for the draw. It's reviewed and the money is paid out. So it will be paid out in segments. How much experience do I need? Well, zero flip experience is possible for a pro for a borrower with good credit and a profitable flip, right? If it's a good flip with a high ROI, you're going to be in good shape. Most, I would say usually the threshold minimum ROI that they're looking for in a flip is 30%. If there isn't at least 30 percent profit in a flip, that doesn't say they won't do it, but you're not going to get the best terms. Even if you've done 20 flips in the last year, if it's not that much of a profitable flip, they're not going to give you the 90 percent total loan to cost. But again, if you have zero experience, Again, that's, and you have a profitable flip, then you're going to get the, you know, you're going to get in on the action. Another common question is, do I need to make any payments during the rehab? Again, this is going to depend on the profitability of the flip that's referred to as interest reserve. When you can build in the, interest payments into the loan. So it's a very profitable flip. You may be able to build in a good portion of the interest payment into the loan as interest reserve. How much income will you need to qualify to verify? Well, I already mentioned this. No personal income is required. So that means you don't need P& Ls from the borrower. You don't need tax returns. You don't need pay stubs. You don't need anything. But the flip does need to be profitable. That's what it's going to boil down to. That's why you need to know the as is value, purchase price, total renovations, ARV, closing costs, so then you can determine the profit and hope that it's at least a 30 percent ROI on the deal. Now here's a very common one and listen well to the answer, right? Can you pre approve me for a fixed flip loan purchase? Now, the answer is not really, but we can help you size up the deal, right? Or we can help you size up your potential. But remember, each flip is specific and the profit that we're analyzing comes from the flip. So unless you have a property already selected, For us to review the information where, you know, the, as is value, the purchase price, the ARV and the renovation amount and the closing costs, which we can figure the closing cost part out. So that, so that the ROI, the return on investment, the profit on the deal can be figured out. If you don't have the exact property already figured out and have that data for us, all that we can really do is review your credit and review your experience. But the final say will depend on the profit of the flip. So you will need an actual property in the scope of the work, renovation and the ARV and all the other components that I mentioned, which I'm going to cover in the last slide so that we can actually quote the deal and then let you know how much will be lent to you, how much will be the loan amount, what percentage and all that kind of stuff as well as interest rates. So it's hard to pre approve anybody. For a, for a fixed flip, unless you already have an exact property selected. And here's a real popular one. Can I do a refinance of my incomplete fixed purchase? And the answer is absolutely. However, it may not be a cashless transaction. Depending on the whole scenario, they may want the borrower to put some skin in on the game. If it's an in process flip where basically they're running out of time, flips going to come up. The expiration of the loan is going to come up. The current lender doesn't want to extend it. Doesn't want to do anything. So it may not be a cash out refinance for the purpose of getting money out. It may just be a cash out refinance for the purpose of getting more money. For to be able to finish the flip. So you may not get any money in your pocket cash out. You're just going to pay off the existing lien, cover the closing cause, and then have additional money left over that will be distributed as draws. Right. So, but to break it down a little bit more, if it's a cash purchase. That's fine. That's not an incomplete flip per se, but it can be refinanced via a delayed financing option. I already mentioned in process flips can be refinanced. You're just not going to get usually any cash out. You may be able to get additional monies for, for renovations. Maybe the scope of the work increased a little bit. And then very importantly, at the end, the investor can keep the property and refinance into the end loan, usually a DSCR loan, uh, if that's what they choose to do. And that's what a lot of investors are doing. A lot of the DSCR loans that we pick up as refinances I would say not a lot, but I would say 30 to 40 percent of them are flippers that are refinancing out of the flip loan into a DSCR loan because they love the property, they saw the rental comparables, they know it's a money maker. They probably would rather keep it for a year, at least anyhow, to get even more equity and make some of that money back as rental profit. And at the same time refinance and get some cash out to buy another property. So it's a win win situation if they keep the property, right? Good rental income, they get the money to buy another property and they hold on to the asset and let it appreciate a little bit more because usually after a year it's going to be the best option for somebody that's buying the property. To get the best loan as well. And lastly here in this last slide, I'm sharing with our, with our MLOs out there, as well as our investors out there that are looking to get into a fixed flip loan, what is the essential information needed to assess and quote the fixed flip loan. And by quote, I'm talking about the rate, the cost, the loan amount, LTV, all that good stuff, because we're going to run it through a pricer that's going to let us know all of these factors. Now, obviously the information going in, has to be valid because an appraisal will be done. And the appraisals that are done for these fixed flip loan is an appraisal with the ARV value. Where the appraiser has to put in the current as his value, the scope of the work and the after repaired value, which would be the market value of the property in its newly renovated condition. So information you need here, this is what you need to request from the borrowers and what the borrowers need to be ready to provide to their loan consultant. The name of the LLC. or the entity that the property is going to be held in. Fixed lip loans can never be in a personal name. They're always going to be in an entity. Who's the borrower name? Because that's going to be the guarantor. What's the borrower FICO score? Because again, they're going to be the guarantor. Now, real important, as far as to be able to get the maximum loan to cost. What is the number of flips for sale in the last three years? What is the number of flips for rent during the last three years? What is the number of ground up construction deals or ground up construction bills in the last three years? What is the name of the general contractor or if it's going to be a self billed? What is the exit strategy? Sell or hold? Really important there. What is the purchase price? What is the as is value? What is the rehab budget? Both soft and hard costs. What is the ARV? After repaired value, in other words, the value of the property, the current market value of the property after all renovations are completed. What are the estimated rents? Especially important. If you're planning on holding the property after closing, right, we're going to be calculating a debt service coverage ratio. You want to make sure that whatever is your target loan amount, when, when, if you're planning on holding the property and depending on the cash that you want to get, make sure that the debt service coverage ratio covers, or make sure that the debt. The rent covers the debt service coverage ratio minimum. And that minimum we're looking for is at least 1. 0. We have options where the debt service coverage ratio is less than one, but usually what's going to happen is, the LTV is either going to be lower. Or much higher rate at a much higher cost. So there are very limited options at a 75 percent LTV for a low ratio DSCR where the DSCR is 0. 75 to 0. 99. And there are no options at a 75 percent LTV for a no ratio DSCR where the DSCR is less than 0. 75. So again, that's why you really have to do all this planning up front. And what is the property address? What is the term requested? Six to 24 months are the norm out there. Your best bet is to get at least 12 months. You don't want to have to get a six month option. Yeah, the rate's going to be low or a little bit lower cost, but it's really stressful. If you're getting close to the six month, threshold and you're not ready and now you got to ask for an extension. They don't want to give it to you. So then you got to refinance the in process flip and you know, those aren't the easiest ones to do. And last but not least, what type of draw type are you requesting? Do you want advanced draws or do you want reimbursement? After the work is completed. So, very important page here. This, this basically, summarizes almost everything that we covered in the other slides. The terms that you have to know, the strategies and all that kind of good stuff. So, really important for MLOs. If you want to be a good loan consultant, please know what you're getting into. You have to be an expert. And I would recommend you. You know, learn all these, all these phrases, all the terminology and get out there, join some investor groups, be active in the meetings, you know, co network with these investors, let them see how knowledgeable you are so that hopefully once they feel comfortable with you, they, they will start referring you deals. And it's like a tidal wave. Once you get one and you delight them with your service and exceed their expectations, you They're going to give you more deals from them as well as refer you deals from their investor buddies that they run around with. So definitely look to the mortgage calculator for all of your fixed flip loans, DSCR loans, and all other type of loan types. Let me go ahead and see if there are any questions here in the chat. So I do just want to point out, I do just want to point out here that, let me take that off the screen. Sorry about that. So amazing programs right here. And the burr method is an amazing way to build a real estate portfolio. So it's definitely something, again, that's why it's a hot topic, right? As I was saying, you know, your, your borrower can take the same, you know, a hundred thousand dollars they have to invest, right? There's no way they're going to buy 10, 20 properties. But through the Burr method, they can buy one, rehab it, rent it to stabilize it, refinance it to get the money back, plus then some, and then repeat the process, right? So you can do one at a time, use the same 100, 000 down payment 10, 20 times in a row, using the Burr method. So instead of just buying one property or, you know, like I said, not being able to buy multiples. You can build an entire rental, portfolio, a little, little, you know, I guess portfolio is the word I'm looking for. A nice little rental portfolio, a little empire. They're just using that same capital for the down payment. So that's why it's such a popular, concept right now. And especially since rents are so high, like Jose was saying, it's just an absolute, Usually you're going to knock it out of the park, right? And when, when you do, then it's easy to come and do it again and again and again. And as the loan officer, not only are you a consultant with them through that first deal, but also as, as I said, there's the refinance on the backend, right? The second deal. And then there's the repeat, right? So as loan officers out there, make sure you're familiar with these things, make sure you're educating your borrowers on these things and make sure that you're equipped. to handle these type of loans when they come in because it's not just one loan. It's at least two and then who knows where it can take you from there. You might have a client that does 10, 20, 30, 40. Absolutely amazing. And like I also mentioned, Credit score preservation, right? It's not the first flipper that I run into that's now trying to cash out a property and now their credit score is five 60. And when I asked him what happened, did you miss payment? He says, no, I didn't miss payment. But my credit cards are all jacked up to the max. They're over the limit. What are you going to do then? At that point, they're relegated to selling the asset because they can't get any viable financing to make it worthwhile. All they would really be able to do is refinance. Maybe what they owe at a really high rate, if at all, with no monies from the transaction to be able to do the repeat part, right? It doesn't work unless you can do the repeat part. At that point, you're just a flipper. Selling properties and you're not benefiting from also being an investor. And I do want to be clear too, that remember your clients can also, you know, investors can do this without the fix and flip loan, right? It doesn't actually, Jose saying that's the way to do it, to not run up your credit cards, but just be clear, especially the beginners out there, they don't have to do a fix and flip loan for this method, right? This, excuse me, this method is not a loan, right? A BRRRR. Is a method. So whether you buy the house cash and put cash into it and you know what I mean? And then refinance out of it to get your cash back or whether you buy it with a regular loan and then put cash Into it to fix it. That's possible too You could also buy it with a regular loan and put your credit cards into it to fix it But as jose said you're going to be a lot better off doing a fix and flip loan at that point and paying whatever the fix and flip cost is as opposed to 25 percent on whatever it is and ruining, ruining the credit. Yeah, because on, on average, somebody with good credit is going to be able, and if it's a profitable flip, even with limited experience is going to be able to finance anywhere from 80 to 85 percent of the purchase price of the asset for the initial distribution at closing for the closing, right? Which means they'll give 15 to 20 percent down payment. Of that low purchase price and get a hundred percent of the renovation financed. And that's the key. That's actually the answer to that first question there. So I went ahead. Yes. I mean, it does need to, you're always going to need a down payment, for the flip loan, the minimum down payment for a super duper experienced flipper with great credit and a very profitable flip is 10 percent down of the purchase price. Which is 90 percent loan to cost and 100 percent of the, renovations. Next question here is what current rate, and does it mean? Well, again, the current rate is all over the place, right? There isn't one flip outlet, right? So we're going to, we're, we're going to look over for the lowest. Cost and lowest rate option, but sometimes we need to go to a conduit that does, that allows low experience flippers with a high loan to cost or maybe a lower credit score flipper or no credit score flipper with a profitable flip, right? So again, it's all over the spectrum regarding FICO score requirements, but if I were to try to generalize in the majority of the cases. They're gonna be looking at a minimum. Now, this is not all the cases. I'm saying in most of the cases, but remember, we have low FICO score options and we have no FICO score option. But if you want to go with the rule of thumb, 620, or above for an experienced flipper and 660 or above for a flipper with zero experience. And the rates could be anywhere from, probably from the high nines to low tens up to 13, 14, 15 percent. If it's a zero experience flipper with no FICO score and a flip that's not too profitable. So it's each deal is specific. Okay. Next question here is the closing time. Okay. We have a fixed flip options that don't do an appraisal, physically of the property. They do a desktop, appraisal. Obviously those are going to be quicker and those we can close in seven to 10 days max. We can close that option. And, but typically the flip loan could take, 18 to 21 days at least. And remember, as, as all other deals, when an appraisal is involved, if the appraiser sets you back, that's going to delay your closing. And also if the title company has a delay due to the title search taking longer than expected or the lean search or whatever, that's going to delay your closing. So keep in mind that it's not always about this, how quickly can the underwriter review it and how quickly can the loan officer put the file together and submit the underwriting, but it's also the other, services of the loan, like the appraisal and the title work that is also going to contribute to the turnaround time to close. All right. Last question here. So can I use this for renovating and sell storage? Well, again, this is renovation for the purpose usually of bettering the property, adding value to the property. If the renovation is not adding value, they may not, they may not lend on it, right? That's why, as is value, purchase price, renovation costs, and after repaired values are key components to knowing if a loan will be able to be made. On that asset now cell storage facilities, you know, that's a commercial asset limited offerings, but there are Fixed flip loans for commercial property and another question just came in here If I buy a flip can I do my own loan? You can't do your own luck, you know a teammate can do it Uh kind of in a roundabout way, but you wouldn't actually be All right. I don't see any other questions. So we'll go ahead and wrap it up. A great topic here today. I recommend people, you can go do a lot of research. We actually have a couple other presentations on birth. You type in burner, the mortgage calculator or whatever. But also there's tons of podcasts and videos and trainings and all kinds of stuff on the birth concept. And again, it's a hot button topic. With your clients and with investors, right? And so it's something that you should be aware of, be talking to them about, and it's something that people are really interested in. It's something that especially a lot of the younger generation are aspiring to do to build wealth. So it's something that you need to be very aware of, know how it works and be able to do it so you can help your clients out. So, with that being said, thank you everybody for tuning in and we will be back here tomorrow with a new topic. So, we'll see you all tomorrow at 7 p. m. Eastern for the next episode of the Loan Officer Training Series with